The blog of Steve Root

Spam wars – "determination of damages" hearing date set

Taking a spammer to court to get them to stop isn’t for the faint of heart.

Here’s the history:
A company, “Cybernet Media” (stick .co.uk on the end of that and you’ll find their website, I’ll not give them the benefit of a link) started sending spam way back in 2006.
I asked them to stop, they continued.
I pointed out to them that by sending it they are breaking The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003. I asked them to reply and confirm they would stop sending the spam. I said that if they send any more I’ll bill them 50 per email for my time so far. I said if they didn’t reply I’d take more formal action.
They didn’t reply, I didn’t get round to taking the formal action… until they sent 2 more emails. I phoned them and faxed them. They said by phone they’d stop but decided to send 4 more emails within 24 hours. This was now August 2007.
So, I sent them an invoice for 6 emails. They didn’t pay or respond.
I called them again in September and said if they don’t pay I’d take them to court. They didn’t pay so I started a small claims court action against them.

Here I made a mistake: I asked for the damages plus a statement from them that they would comply with the regulations in future. That meant it had to have a “directions hearing” which of course cybernet didn’t turn up to either. Still the result of the directions hearing was headed by a line: “1. There be judgement for the claimant for damages to be determined by the court” – so I guess that means they agree I have a claim the only question left is how much.

I now know the small claims court can’t make people say they will comply with regulations (that’s what the judge explained to me in the directions hearing). To do so I would have to take out an injunction. If they break the injunction and send more spam, they commit a criminal offence of contempt of court (and could even go to prison for that). Problem is I still haven’t figured out how exactly what to do to take out an injunction. At the moment all I’m claiming from them is the damages from them sending spam and me having to chase them to pay the damages (which, incidentally, they’ve never contested. They haven’t even replied to the court which as directors of a limited company may be another offense under the Companies Act, I’m not sure though). Anyway, damages so far 1,005.37.

I still have another week in which to decide if I want to take out an injunction on them but to be honest I have proper work to do and I can’t afford the time to research it. I do now realise why the information commissioner has never taken anyone court for breaking the regulations though. The judge raised a good question – “Do you think they will actually pay?”. I have no idea, I’d rather hope that with a court order against them they would have to. My case is against both an individual and a company. They don’t declare their company number on their website (they really should, but hey, no one’s perfect), “Chris” who I spoke to didn’t know the company number and then claimed he worked as an agent, not for the company. As he sent the spam, I put him down personally on the claim as well as the limited company. Mid February is the hearing date – I’ll keep you posted!

Comments

24 responses to “Spam wars – "determination of damages" hearing date set”

  1. Kay

    hi steve,

    this company are well known spammers. the names i have associated with it are Alex Harvey and Chris Mortimer.

    well done for making a stand. i really doubt you will get them to pay anything. the best way to deal with a company like this is to completely waste their time. ask them to do some research, arrange meetings and dont turn up, etc.

    childish i know but ooooh so satisfying. other things you can do is just keep mentioning the ‘agents’ names all over the net…you know like CYBERNET MEDIA, ALEX HARVEY oh and not forgetting CHRIS MORTIMER

    see: http://www.webworkshop.net/seoforum/viewtopic.php?t=17850

    Reply
  2. nuclei

    As someone actively employed in the SEO/SEM industry, I find companies like this one reprehensible. I would say to get the injunction, and up your “damages” so that a collection agency will take the case and pester the living daylights out of them.

    Reply
  3. Kevin

    Oops, Chris Mortimer sent his message to me today and explained very carefully why it isn’t spam. For some reason a lot of Cybernet Media websites are now blacklisted in a few high profile places… Can’t believe I’ve not come across this company earlier!

    The injunction sounds wonderful too but surely they’ve list washed you by now anyway? It seems unlikely you’d be able to catch them at it again.

    Anyway, this is wonderful, best of luck getting it sorted.

    Reply
  4. Richard Jones

    To be honest Cybernet Media LTd are the few companies who really get results. I used them and the service and wresults achieved was excellent. I really think you should try the company before you judge a company.

    The have a front page listing for “search engine optimisation” URL: (removed as spam by Steve) .

    Iused SEO companies before like (three company names removed) and they were rubbish.

    Reply
  5. Steve Root

    @Kay – If the judge finds in my favour, I’d guess they’ll have to pay.

    @Nuclei – One bad company shouldn’t reflect on the rest of the industry

    @Kevin – The injunction (if I ever get to it) will be worded such that they comply with the regulations. That means if they break the regulations again by sending you or anyone spam, they commit a criminal offence of contempt of court (that was how it was explained to me by the judge). I’m pleased to say they haven’t sent any more spam to me since then.

    Reply
  6. Steve Root

    Hello Richard,

    I was going to say that I haven’t commented on Cybernet’s ability to do their job. Just that they persist on sending spam knowing they are breaking the regulations. Knowingly breaking the law is simply bad business practice. It’s not like I didn’t give them time to correct the ‘mistake’. I thought it was a mistake at the beginning, but the more the case continues the more I feel it is their normal way they work. That’s why I always kept their name out of my blog until they didn’t reply to the court or attend the Directions hearing.

    I was going to say that until I decided to check the IP address you used to post your comment ( 82.29.106.250 ) against the spam emails from cybernet. I randomly chose one of the spam emails sent to me from cybernet media and checked the headers. Perhaps I was just lucky…?

    Received: by 107216-app1.server3.rootskitchens.co.uk (Postfix)
    id 4303D5B05CF; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:30:39 +0000 (GMT)
    Delivered-To: sroot@107216-app1.server3.rootskitchens.co.uk
    ***** look at this line *****
    Received: from cpc2-stre3-0-0-cust622.bagu.cable.ntl.com (cpc2-stre3-0-0-cust761.bagu.cable.ntl.com [82.29.106.250])
    by 107216-app1.server3.rootskitchens.co.uk (Postfix) with SMTP id 3ACA15B054D
    for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:30:38 +0000 (GMT)
    ***** see how it comes from the same IP address! *****
    From: “Alex Harvey”
    To: “sr”
    Subject: CYBER NET MEDIA LTD
    Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 14:30:47 +0000
    Organization: Cybernet Media LTD
    MIME-Version: 1.0
    Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
    boundary=”—-=_NextPart_000_0000_01C6527E.AE8904D0″
    X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
    Message-Id: <20070323143038.3ACA15B054D@107216-app1.server3.rootskitchens.co.uk>

    So Richard, Chris, Alex, or whatever name you wish to use, you’ve been caught red handed once again. Perhaps next time you’ll go and use a library computer if you want to post false representations about your own company under a different name. As for whether cybernet media are any good at SEO, I’m still not in a position to say but I’m sure potential customers can draw their own conclusions if they read this. By the way, you never took the time to reply to the court – are you coming this time?

    Reply
  7. Steve Root

    And another thing, you posted that comment as:
    Commenter name: Richard Jones
    Commenter email address: info@tradesmenquoter.co.uk
    Commenter URL: tradesmen quoter. co. uk
    Commenter IP address: 82.29.106.250

    Now the domain name has the owner details hidden under the individual opt-out rules. As the site is clearly a business I’ve asked nominet to publish the contact details so I can look and see if there is a connection.

    In the mean time, Does “Richard” exist too or is it a made up name?
    Is it just a coincidence the address on the tradesmenquoter web site is:
    Tradesmen House, Barton Rd, Stretford, Greater Manchester, M32 9TA
    And the cybernet media address on their web site is:
    435 Barton Road
    Stretford
    Manchester
    Greater Manchester
    M32 9TA

    I’m sure all the readers would love to hear your response!

    Reply
  8. Will

    Hi Steve, it does seem to me that the spammers have kinda messed themselves up on this issue. They should have made sure they weren’t using a static IP first.

    I’m sure Virgin Media would be very interested in the fact that someone is sending spam from their network, in violation of their Accepable use policy: http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html/legal/oncable/acceptableuse.html

    Rather amusing I think. Good on ya Steve. 🙂

    Will.

    Reply
  9. Alastair

    I say keep fighting.
    I too gets lots of this junk all linked to a London address…

    tradesmenquoter.co.uk – not only falsely concealed address, but in the name “Yasser” – Nominet will serve notice on the registrants email address for failure to provide an identifiable registrant.

    Companies House – 1. They will pursue satisfaction of the Companies Act and see to it that any company puts their company number, registered address, etc. on their website.
    2. for a small fee they will provide names and addresses of company directors.

    Court – If you win in the small claims court, and the defendant fails to pay, one option, combined with details obtained from companies house, may be to petition the company/defendant for bankruptcy. No more trouble than a small claims case.

    Mailboxes Etc – Have you noticed that the company DomainHost Ltd and various of the domains/companies associated with the spam, eg. britain in business ltd and tierthree co.uk are all registered in common at the Strand, London franchise of Mailboxes Etc, http://www.mbe.uk.com, who provide PO Boxes amongst other useful services.
    You note that department 6, floor 10, etc. simply indicate PO Box numbers, not actual office addresses.

    After various adverse newspaper coverage that focussed on fraudsters, Mailboxes etc are sensibly not at all keen to be associated with scallywags, fraudsters and the like. They should frame their user agreement carefully such that such proven disregard for UK regulations, and near certain link with fraudulent money raising scams, are sufficient reason to turf them out on their ear with no more than 48 hours notice. All mail being returned to sender.

    (mailboxes etc contact details removed by Steve at Alastair’s request)

    …such contact might fall on helpful ears – if these spamming losers could not rely upon easy access to a good mailbox at low price, maybe they and others would exit.

    It is a pity that Nominet consider the address of their registrars to be a confidential matter. Making the information public and obliging their members to keep them abreast of any changes would enable us, the consumer, and Nominets source of revenues, to more quickly identify registrars who are failing in their duty. Nominet should be keen to get rid of bad, errant, incompetent and scurrilous registrars – it is not good for the UK and not good for Nominets reputation (and that can do with some polish!)

    Reply
  10. Alastair

    …sorry… oops. Last post a bit off the mark – my brain must be getting fried by focussing on spam today.
    I meant every word of it, just not all of it relates to your case.
    Perhaps you can benefit from some of it, and edit (delete) the unrelated parts and the mailboxes bit?

    I certainly wish you all success and get in touch if you want info on legal matters – a mate does this stuff for a hobby, aided by legal professionals in the family, and is usually ready to advise how this that or the other is done.

    Reply
  11. Steve Root

    Thanks for the comments Alastair, I already have the Directors details for cybernet media and one of the directors is named Yasser … (I don’t have the paperwork in front of me, but I’m 99% certain the name matches from memory). I’m also wondering if Yasser and “Chris Mortimer” are the same person, only time will tell.

    It’s funny you should mention “Britain in Business Ltd”, late last year I asked them for where they got my email address from but they never replied. The emails stopped for now (they were selling/using the name “Bitesize seminars” if I remember correctly) but should they start again I may be a little more persistent with them too.

    As for Nominet, it makes sense that individuals who register names for personal use can opt-out of the public listing. If you have a genuine need to know contact details Nominet will tell you. By not publishing automatically it helps prevent spam and other problems. If a domain is registered incorrectly they will investigate and publish the details where appropriate. I asked them to do this yesterday for tradesmenquoter.co.uk and today checking whois reveals:
    Domain name:
    tradesmenquoter.co.uk

    Registrant:
    yasser

    Registrant type:
    UK Individual

    Registrant’s address:
    165 railway street
    nelson
    lancashire
    BB9 9PG
    GB

    What a surprise, that address matches one of the Cybernet media addresses.

    I’ve had ownership information published for a few domain names, a single email and 24 hours is all that’s normally needed.

    A few months ago I checked the domain details of some spam I received. It was owned by a limited company but checking companies house showed the company had been dissolved. An email to nominet resulted in the domain being suspended immediately. Wouldn’t you just love to see the reaction of the spammer when he found out 🙂

    Reply
  12. Kevin

    To quote an ESP who deal(t) with Britain In Business Ltd

    “BIB believe they are purchasing good lists from companies like Intelligent data and Halo data”

    The former of those two often coming up in conversation with a lot of B2B spammers sending to small businesses in the UK. Ask some local businesses if they see the same companies and I’ll bet you all have one organisation somewhere in your past.

    Reply
  13. Rob C

    Re: Britain in Business

    This bunch have been around for years: they used to send everything under the name Bite Size Seminars but seem to have decided Britain in Business sounds more exciting. The modus operandii is to register a domain (as a private individual of course), spam about their dubious seminars then move on. You can get Nominet to remove the private flag but they only use each domain once so it’s fairly pointless. The only solution I’ve found is to give them their own private SpamAssassin rule(s).

    What news of the court case?

    Reply
  14. Steve Root

    Hello Rob,

    Results from the case – I won! Full details posted at
    http://www.steveroot.co.uk/2008/02/spam-wars-the-s.html

    Reply
  15. Joel

    Nice one Rob!

    I am currently taking a London based company to court as when I asked to be removed from their email list their MD emailed me telling me to “F**k off”.

    I also wrote to their solicitors stating I wouldn’t have any other choice but to go to court and the only response was “see you in court, d*ckhead” (*changed for purposes of not trying to upset anyone)

    Strangely he admits sending the emails and he’s stating he is going to defend his actions…..pretty bizarre one really!

    Reply
  16. Peter

    Steve
    Well done and thanks
    I had an e mail from these guys but having googled them I came across your blog and as a result I have been able to put them on my blocked list.

    I get enough spam without it being added to by these spamdits.

    Reply
  17. Graeme

    Hi Steve

    These guys have a new incarnation now called Midas Media Associates and have moved into the realm of ripping off people for websites (I know, I just learnt the hard way). Theyve jumped onto iFreelance, Scriptlance and the such looking for targets. Maybe they had to diversify theyre marketing plan due to better spam filters. Hey I wonder if theyve complained about restrictions on trade??? lol

    Well it looks like they run enough scams till the heat gets too much on one company then they move onto a new one like Midas. So far Ive found GNS Marketing, SEOBank and Netlister along with Cybernet just to name a few. All have long strings of disgruntled customers that have been just blatantly ripped off. Not being from the UK Im a little surprised that they can still hold company directors roles when theyve had so many separate court actions against them.

    Probably the biggest questions are.
    Is Chris Mortimer a real person or just Yasser Hussains alter ego?
    Then there is James Williams, or is he just Yassers buddy Nasir Abbas or visa versa?
    Then again there is Alex Harvey? Mmm.. maybe they just take turns and pull names out of a hat each morning after they finish sharing the toothbrush?

    There is just one other twist with all this and that is with the classic spams like the 419 and the UK lottery. Has anyone else ever notice the names James Williams, Chris Mortimer and Alex Harvey also appear as the sender on a lot of these spams?

    Good luck Steve

    Reply
  18. Pete

    Hi Steve,

    Found this page because I’ve started receiving unsolicited mail from Britain in Business Ltd too. For a while now I’ve been meaning to take action against a spammer (just to see if it works really (plus it’s a good way to relax after a stressful day)), but finding some a suitable candidate has been tricky (most of my spam either comes from abroad or is opt-in stuff that I’ve mistakenly agreed to).

    Are you familiar with the Data Protection Act and Subject Access Requests? This was my first though – it would force them to reveal all the personal information that they had on me, include where they’d got my address from (if they had bought a mailing list).

    Where to go from there though, I’m not sure. I know that in UK law, mailing lists are meant to be explicitly opt-in (as oppose to in America where they’ve opt-out), but I’m not sure how you’d go about reporting this. I tend to feel as well that simply reporting the email to upstream providers etc won’t do much – they’ll just get a slap on the wrists, if that – seems like legal action is the way to go if you want a result.

    Anyway, any advice you can offer would certainly be very gratefully received – seems like you’ve gained a lot of first hand experience over the last few months

    Reply
  19. Mark

    I found this page a while ago whilst trying to find information on Britain in Business as we receive a large quantity of spam from them and associated companies such as Communicado Ltd, Bitesize Seminars, Domain Host Ltd and Prestige Promotions.

    An interesting bit of information I’ve found today is that Wayne Mansfield, a notorious Australian spammer may be linked to these companies.

    The name of one of his Australan companies, T3 Direct Marketing is rather too similar to the name Tier Three which is associated with BIB and the nature of some of his business activities (business seminars)is in the same realm as BIB.

    Spamhaus did add an IP range belonging poboxhosting and used by BIB to their sbl about a month ago but they still appear to be hosting BIB domains on other addresses. BIB also appear to using the hosting services of 1&1 Internet and 2D Media. All the old domains that were originally hosted on the blocked poboxhosting IPs now appear to be hosted on one IP address belonging to Eukhost Ltd.

    Reply
  20. Mr City Blue

    At the end of the day we are all here to make money right!

    I don’t care if it takes 750.000, 1.000.000+ emails to generate 10 deals for me and I get 2500.00 per case. Thats 25.000 my competition does not have and I do! My house is covered, my bills and my family can sleep at night being a little more secure.

    People who are commenting here are obviously ethicle which I find refreshing however in the current economic climate he who dares does win. I get SEO from Cybernet Media Ltd for 500.00 per month and have signed a 3 year contract because consistantly they have delieved on their promise to me and as unless they go bump I will continue to do so.

    I know who I need to deal with and I also know some of the contracts they look after which would astonish you. Everyone gets spammed. Everyone. It’s bloody annoying. But if it means I DON’T have to go and speak to a SME Bank Manager it’s on.

    I might go against the grain, the person reading this may be a jobs worth whatever.

    Good luck to all of us.

    Reply
  21. Melanie

    This makes very interesting reading indeed. My company has had many dealings with Cybernet Media, none Im afraid to say have been pleasant and this is great ammunition for me to use against them in my own claims. Their customer service leaves alot to be desired.
    I have visited their offices at Exchange Quay in Salford Quays of which they rent some space from a company called Regus.
    Unfortunately for the poor receptionist, she must get alot of complaints from disgruntled clients.
    I myself demanded to see the elusive Chris, only to be told that he wasnt in. The guy I spoke to….Alex I think he said, told me to make an appointment with Chris…that was 4 months ago and I have been trying to get an audience with Mr Mortimer since.
    Well done on your results Steve – this has been very helpful.

    Reply
  22. Andy

    Interesting read. I’ve issued court proceedings against this company for an outstanding dept. So far i have received judgement, and i’m about the issue the warrant. Nothing has come back from this company. I know they have moved from their “Regus” address a couple of months ago. Numbers on website not working either. If anyone has any contact details for this company i would be all ears. http://www.completeclaimsolutions.co.uk Send me any updates on my blog.

    Reply
  23. Jack

    The full name of the shadowy “Chris Mortimer” is Yasser Hussain!

    I’ve been stung by these guys too. A recent chargeback attempt came back empty. Going to issue small claims action soon to “Better Fairs Manchester” as they appear on my card statement, even though they represent themselves as Betterfares and Taxiquoter.

    Reply
  24. Sam

    Guys,

    Business Seminars have a contact form on their website is you fancy spamming them back: http://www.bitesizeseminars.com/contact-us

    Cheers

    Reply

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